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Thread: Greeks versus the world in Athens

  1. #21
    Internet Nerd Punk Punk crustybeckham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derazzios View Post
    If you can name a system that has done better go ahead.
    Done better than what? Enforcing painful, boring work on populations? Creating the most powerful elite in history?
    "Social measures", as you call them, have been won in blood by the people. In the early stage of modern capitalism, the workers were little more than slaves. Every single "social measure" had to be fought for. It is not a present from the capitalists, it was by threatening them that they reluctantly took these measures, not because they thought they were fair, but because they feared that repressing even more would lead to revolution.
    Many systems would do much better than your "social capitalism" and the very fact that the people who believed in different, equalitarian political systems have been (and indeed, are) fought and jailed by the oligarchies of this world is proof enough of this. What about the Paris commune? Revolutionary Spain? Or even communal forms of living that one can find in Indigenous people's lives? And even if you couldn't find a lasting example, would it mean that the current political economic system is the best that can be achieved? If you believe so, it is quite sad to say the least.

  2. #22
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    How about standard of living, freedom, life expectancy. Find me a system which has provided those things better. Not what "would do", because until it is observed in action it is just a fantasy.

  3. #23
    Internet Nerd Punk Punk crustybeckham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derazzios View Post
    How about standard of living, freedom, life expectancy. Find me a system which has provided those things better. Not what "would do", because until it is observed in action it is just a fantasy.
    If you call "standard of living" being surrounded by useless plastic crap, having big cars, and basically having an unsustainable lifestyle that might lead us to an ecological disaster, then I guess capitalism is the best indeed (in terms of ecology, the same criticism can be made about authoritarien Socialism/Communism).
    Now about "freedom". In our modern democracies (actual "plutocracies"), you can pretty mush say anything you want (especially in the US). However, when you try to do things and actually threaten the precious stauts-quo, you find out that you are not so free. When you try to take back what is ours (I mean this phrase ifrom a class prespective), you find out that well, you can talk about it, but not do it. You are free to elect a president who will defend the interests of the few. You are free to work every day until you are old and broken and bitter. You are free to be homeless if you can't afford a shelter. You are free to eat from the bins too.
    About "life expectancy", rich countries have older people because they can afford a better health system. But now, how many elederly end up living alone, skint, depressed?

    Now, you are going to say "Look at other parts of the world! This is not so bad!"
    But surely, there is more to life than this, right? If you really think that until something has existed, then it is impossible to happen, you are one cynical man who would stay in a world of shit for fear of something shittier or because the neighbours are in deeper shit. So, until a new society has emerged and proven itself to be better to your eyes, you will chose the old system, just because, at least we know it could be worse.

    Other political organizations are possible. I don't want to repeat myself, but Spain 1936 (with all its flaws) is an example. And it has been observed in action. Hence not a fantasy. Communal (towards a common goal) way of lives (on smaller scales of course) could also be cited as past examples (traditional Pueblo political organization for instance).

    The change, the "coming revolution", or whatever can be a fantasy. I don't know when or even if it is going to happen, for better or worse. However, to say that our modern system is the best that can be achieved by man in History is unaccurate.

    Unless you are Lady Whirlwind, in which case I might actually be losing my time...

  4. #24
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    Again when you show me a better system I will become an advocate of that system. You point to something that happened for such a brief time and under such unique conditions that it was never really put to the test. It wasn't tested with disputes arising over decades or people just hungering for change after a long time. Plus the fact that every culture on Earth was basically Anarchist/Communist and for the most part evolved into something else with the advent of agriculture (which usually involves land ownership by somebody even if it's the tribe). If one comes to conclusions on the empirical rather than the fantastic one would have to come to the conclusions that the way of capitalism (with social programs and progressive taxation as I specified) of North America and Western Europe is about the best for the average person as a system has ever been.

  5. #25
    Internet Nerd Punk Punk crustybeckham's Avatar
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    Well, I disagree. I don't really understand your point of view. If the system were so efficient, why would people even protest? The limited lifespan of libertarian experiments doesn't discard their validity and doesn't qualify them as "fantasy". Remember that the US poverty rate has been evaluated at 15% in 2011 (official number by the way). In France, it is 13,5%.
    Your empirism is the argument the system keepers use all the time, they argue that one needs to be "realistic" (meaning, this is the best it can be).

    But really, this is a topic about Greece, therefore I shall stop arguing. It is pointless.

  6. #26
    Cyberpunk as Fuck Punk to the bone read fox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crustybeckham View Post
    But really, this is a topic about Greece, therefore I shall stop arguing. It is pointless.
    but are not most American and European countries either a few steps behind Greece, or one in front? is it not showing US and Europe what lies around the bend?

  7. #27
    Internet Nerd Punk Punk crustybeckham's Avatar
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    Greece is Europe. It has been a member of the EU since 1981, and joined the "Euro zone" in 2001.
    According to the economists (those you see on telly anyway), if the Greek state went bankrupt, the next in line would be Italy and Portugal. And maybe Spain. And France too, possibly. Capitalist Europe is going crazy about the possible Greek bankrupcy.

    I guess they will try to save capitalism again, at the expense of the people.

  8. #28
    Internet Nerd Punk Punk crustlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by @mbrosi@ View Post
    but are not most American and European countries either a few steps behind Greece, or one in front? is it not showing US and Europe what lies around the bend?
    Italy is already very close to Greece:cost of borrowing has touched a new record,this is the first phase of downfall,as for the Greece today was the fifth day without government (prime minister quit and there are negotiations between the 2 big parties about a new government of Quislings).believe it or not,things are going better without government:the property of a scum bank owner was confiscated,a hedge fund owner was arrested,a glamorous hair stylist was arrested,some public service officials were arrested (tax,drug and corruption cases) and of curse there weren't any new taxes!

  9. #29
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    "I guess they will try to save capitalism again, at the expense of the people. "

    Such rhetoric. Even if the system collapses in bankruptcy it will likely still be capitalism. Just very poor capitalism. In other words it will be part of the ascendancy of once poor countries like China to the top of wealthiest countries. The only way it would cease to be capitalist is if t was by some coup by hard line soviet style leftists which is a lot more likely than it becoming some sort of anarchist led free socialism. A repeat of the Soviet Union would not benefit anyone. Or it could turn straight up Fascist as Germany did when their economy collapsed. Extreme conditions make people capable of some very nasty things (anyone of any easily scapegoated ethnic minority may want to skip town) .

    Given the lessons of history the chances that an economic crisis would result in a libertarian utopia is so slim and the chances that it would result in a totalitarian nightmare is so great you had better hope they save capitalism.

  10. #30
    Cyberpunk as Fuck Punk to the bone read fox's Avatar
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    United States is the capitalist mecca of the uni~verse, yet, is pointing two stately, bigoted fingers at minority "aliens" for the blame, and hath much love for a presidential candidate who jokes of encasing 'U.S.' in electrocuting cages!

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